Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:32:02 -0500 From: "John M. Baker" Subject: pt13 Finishing statements Well, as the moderator to this game I'd like to thank everyone for participating. Rob's Dark Prank* deck, "No Laughing Matter," won with 5 VP. Xian's Obtenebration combat deck, which I called, "Might Makes Right," received 1 VP while my self-abuse deck, "Dead Man's Party," received 1 VP. First comment: I know that from the beginning Rob was against Dark Prank. Now we all know why. A horde of weenie Pranksters can virtually instantly cripple a deck into an endless cycle of hunting, allowing those same weenies to have free reign of the table for the rest of the game. Bravo, Rob, on pointing that out so dramatically. My deck was a redesigned version of playtest3's "Masochism Tango." For those not familiar with the concept, I send some of my own vampires to torpor, play a bunch of pool loss masters, and refill myself with Regenerations and Blood Dolls. My torporized vampires occasionally come out just long enough to Force of Will/Day Operation, then return to torpor to continue. Now, I know what you're all thinking: What Blood Dolls? Well, you're right, my cards betrayed me there. I'll go back and examine the card list, though, to check whether I screwed up in deck design or not. (Heck, I didn't draw Smiling Jack until the very end of the game.) The vampires Alice Trudeaux and Srinivasan, Salubri were useful in making the deck work. The Auspex, Fortitude, and Get out of torpor free schtick made Srinivasan excellent both topside and torp-side. Alice is rather interesting. Sure, she has the ability to go to torpor as an action, but let's face it; she doesn't need it. She can just Force of Will, Day Op, Dawn Op and not prevent, Dare the Dawn, or Self Sacrifice* her way there. What makes Alice such a great vampire isn't her special, though. It's her discipline combo. I have yet to exhaust her usefulness in these games, and I doubt she will be exhausted by the end of this playtest, if indeed there ever will be. Interestingly, the deck's combat defense was simple: Masochism. Hurt me more, please! Make me bleed! Send me to torpor! I like it there! Still, the question remains whether this deck idea is viable. To be honest, I doubt it. It's apparently prone to hand jam. My inability to go to torpor toward the end of the game prevented any hope I had of competing with Rob. And, of course, Anarch Revolts are notoriously messy. Kudos to Chris in attempting to design an all-playtest deck; sorry it fell flat, though. At the very least, I think people will spend more time examining the utility of Emanuel, Impersonator. He's got some promise, but I'm not sure how much. Dave... Well, I can't say much about what happened there. Rob, you win. Dark Prank is broken and needs fixing. What are your thoughts? Is there anything worth saving about the card? What might it do that isn't already done by Tier of Souls? Justin: using Lure the Beast for disposable vamps was interesting, but I only saw you able to dispose of Fortitude vamps. Did you have Fortitude masters just in case, or did you simply rely on the metagame to supply you with lots of Fortitude? Gomi: We'll call you Action Jack. 101 ways to untap again. Quite impressive. I think we can conclude that Supernatural Tenacity actually has its uses and so it at least isn't wallpaper. Xian: Hurts to be on the receiving end of a Shadow Boxing, don't it? I wonder if perhaps the card is too powerful. I've seen the card used twice: once to Sela with a Torn Signpost and striking with Decapitate, and the other to Alexandra with an Assault Rifle-- not pretty either time. For the cost of 1 blood, it seems quite effective, maybe too effective. Perhaps superior should only be Dodge, inflict 2 damage? John Baker ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Xian" Subject: Re: Now that playtest13 is almost done...thoughts? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:08:57 -0600 Gomi wrote: >Well, I raised some comments on Supernatural Tenacity early in the >game -- it make for a fairly decent ani/chi/for rush combat deck. I Yeah...I saw one of those messages, I think. I didn't get to see any replies to it, though. Being on the receiving end of that, I thought it was mighty nifty to see a Fortitude rush deck...so I don't know if I'm the correct person to make judgements on the card. And I did experience weird hand-jam when Gomi uber-rushed me. I think the only combat card I had was an Immortal Grapple or two, which in retrospect I probably should have used to cycle, but I didn't see the point at the time...and I was suffering from web-based email induced confusion. Also, I'm double-checking right now...don't have the full stats on my deck handy, but I drew 4 GtU, and I think I had 6 in the deck. >think I would have ousted Xian if he hadn't ousted his prey first. I Heh. Well, *I* wasn't the one that made Chris spend lots on his ally. :) I don't know. I'd like to think not, but you're probably right...if nothing else about the game had changed, you had a good shot at getting me out. >ignored the Anarch Revolts too long, especially in light of the low >vote environment. Sweet Whispers makes retainers quite playable, even Mmm...low vote environment. Unfortunate that, as I was going to go around taking heads and votes...I have determined that's a really nifty method of vote-defense. :) >though I never used one this game (ousted too soon). Dance of Confusion >is quite strong, albeit balanced. > >Dark Prank is pretty huge -- twice as good as superior Cryptic Mission. >Should it be toned down (no stealth, only 1 blood)? OTOH, I could just >be reacting because Rob made an effective showcase deck out of it. Xian I think it might need to be looked at, but since it wasn't played on me, I didn't really pay much attention to it. I just saw a lot of them in Rob's discard pile. >used Out of your Shadow to good effect (modulo handjam) -- it's pretty >tasty, but in balance. I really liked the Obtenebration cards...I think this is the first Lasombra deck I've *ever* played, and I really really wish Out of Your Shadow & Viscid Darkness were real-space cards. I thought Out of Your Shadow was in-flavor, not overly-powerful, and the whole first-strike thing would have been useful if my strikes had come at the same time. Actually, I think this might be the first time I've ever seen a First Strike combo have a *good* chance of working. There's an obt card that got trashed (slightly before the game started) which I liked and had been planning on throwing in (maybe it was the shackles?), unfortunately I can't remember it right now... Of the other cards I got to use, I thought Tranquility was interesting, if expensive. It's been trashed, and Dominate doesn't need more stuff to do, but I didn't think it was *overly* powerful. I have to admit that I was a little taken aback at the amazing untapping-ness of Gomi's deck. Ending up in torpor against his vampires didn't suprise me...I knew I wasn't going to have much luck against him when he brought out Ravnos, but the smoothness with which he diablerized my minions was kinda scary. I wish I had more to say about Chris' deck, but I don't think he ever really got rolling...torporizing the big cool Impostor hurt a good deal, I think. Man, was there a lot of Fortitude on the table. But surprisingly little damage prevention. Xian, who played something other than the Tremere, so as not to be *too* predictable... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Xian" Subject: One card I forgot about... Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:21:54 -0600 Stunning Blow. While interesting, I don't think it's that useful. I played it once or twice, but it offers little to the tight rush deck. Stunning Blow Potence Combat 1 blood Nor: Strike: +2 hand damage. Sup: As above, and if this strike successfully inflicts damage, the opposing minion may not manuever or press for the remainder of combat. Ideally, I've rushed, played whatever, am at close range, and play IG. With IG (superior) I've got a press, and he can't maneuver anyway. The only archetype I can see this being highly useful for is a Nosferatu rush deck, but even then, the object is to do a whole bunch of damage at once, and not get to a second round. I don't know. I realize that maybe we can only do so much with Potence, but I think this card is largely wallpaper. Xian ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:45:35 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Berger Subject: Re: pt13 Finishing statements Well, the deck started out as a Serpents of the Light ally deck. Then I added some Tzimice for vicissitude to play Aesthetic Alterations. Threw in some of the nifty SoL allies (JuJu Zombie and Drug Runners, mainly), but I kinda forgot that the Drug Runners were unique. Anyway, after building the deck, I realized that it was almost entirely playtest, so I took out the obfuscate cards I was using and made it an all playtest deck. But the deck sucked. Big time. I need to think more before I make these crappy decks. I played this deck in pt14 also, and it sucked there as well. On the plus side, I really like Dulled Senses. What a great card! I'm not so sure, however, that Gilded Tongue is really all that worthwhile... hmm... maybe I'll try it again sometime. Emmanuel, by the way, is awesome. His ability to use clans and disciplines almost at will should make him a staple of strange discipline combo decks. Heck, he even has a vote. Oh well, maybe I'll build a more useful deck next time. -Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ragtag@ugcs.caltech.edu Subject: Re: Now that playtest13 is almost done...thoughts? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:52:53 -0800 (PST) Okay, I'll provide my own commentary on playtest13, and then respond to Xian's comments (Xian, you're quoting Gomi here, correct?). My deck was intended to showcase Dark Prank as a way to make the archtypical Cryptic Mission deck actually competitive, not to mention the Ravnos. For those of you who don't know, I've long held that the Ravnos suck beans, and that I would never design a serious deck around them. The overall strategy was to use Dark Prank to cripple my pred and prey's vamps (in conjunction with Society of Leopold), while using the Embrace to create more minions and swarm bleed. In this game, it worked quite well but I think that was primarily due to suboptimal play on the part of other Methuselahs (almost no predator pressure, and Gomi missed his opportunity to start taking out my weenies), and to the presence of the Anarch Revolts (although I think I would include them in a different version of this deck, since they worked so well). Even during the design phase, I realized that my deck had a number of problems: 1) A lot of actions, requiring a lot of minions. A bad crypt draw can cause real problems. I got lucky and pulled enough Embraces in time to make it work. 2) It takes multiple actions to disable a vamp. Contrast this to a good combat deck, which takes only one action to cripple each vamp. Also, Dark Prank is useless against allies. 3) Totally shut down by light intercept, fast rush combat, or corruption decks (the last is just so painful of a possibility). In short, I think I got the VPs I did because I got lucky. Still, with a little more tuning I think it could be a genuinely competitive deck. Now, to descuss specific cards that I used: The Circus - Never came up, but as a clone of the Art Museum, I think it's pretty straightforward. Dark Prank - clearly better than Cryptic Mission, but I think it's good that way. Cryptic Mission was always a little weak, and the !Ravnos could use a good clan card. Murderous Heart - Never came up. I just stuck this in because Dark Prank is useless against allies. Yanos, Silent Strider - Never came up, I reserve my judgement. Troy McCarthy - I ended up discarding him, because no one near my was using allies. On the whole, however, I think I would have been better off just using another Murderous Heart, he's just too expensive. Illusions from Afar - I included these to deal with light intercept, but ended up hording them throughout the game. No one had enough intercept for them to matter. Shadow Boxing - While devastating against Potence strikes when it works, it is completely shut down by Immortal Grapple. I think in retrospect I would have been better off using Illusions of the Kindred as combat defense. I think it is best used in a deck that intends to control the nature of combat. Mirror of Illusion - I included these for combat defense and card flow. Card flow turned out to be not at all a problem, and combat defense could have been better addressed with Illusions of the Kindred. Of all the cards I used, I think this most warrants reconsideration. However, it should be playtested a bit more - only one came up for me, and it was during the endgame. According to Xian: > >Well, I raised some comments on Supernatural Tenacity early in the > >game -- it make for a fairly decent ani/chi/for rush combat deck. I > Yeah...I saw one of those messages, I think. I didn't get to see any > replies to it, though. Being on the receiving end of that, I thought it was > mighty nifty to see a Fortitude rush deck...so I don't know if I'm the > correct person to make judgements on the card. And I did experience weird > hand-jam when Gomi uber-rushed me. I think the only combat card I had was > an Immortal Grapple or two, which in retrospect I probably should have used > to cycle, but I didn't see the point at the time...and I was suffering from > web-based email induced confusion. Also, I'm double-checking right > now...don't have the full stats on my deck handy, but I drew 4 GtU, and I > think I had 6 in the deck. I didn't think that Gomi's deck was that strong (no offense, Gomi). It wasn't consistent about pulling Fortitude damage prevention, and didn't consistently do considerable amounts of damage. It scored its chief successes against Xian's weaker vamps when he was hand jammed. As soon as it tried to tackle anything larger, it got hosed. I think all the untap ended up watering down the combat (Gomi, would you care to comment?). Also, it didn't appear to have much of anything it could do about S:CE. I saw one Dance of Confusion get discarded, but that's it... > >Dark Prank is pretty huge -- twice as good as superior Cryptic Mission. > >Should it be toned down (no stealth, only 1 blood)? OTOH, I could just > >be reacting because Rob made an effective showcase deck out of it. Xian > I think it might need to be looked at, but since it wasn't played on me, I > didn't really pay much attention to it. I just saw a lot of them in Rob's > discard pile. See my comments above. I really don't think it is that strong. > I really liked the Obtenebration cards...I think this is the first Lasombra > deck I've *ever* played, and I really really wish Out of Your Shadow & > Viscid Darkness were real-space cards. I thought Out of Your Shadow was > in-flavor, not overly-powerful, and the whole first-strike thing would have > been useful if my strikes had come at the same time. Actually, I think this > might be the first time I've ever seen a First Strike combo have a *good* > chance of working. There's an obt card that got trashed (slightly before > the game started) which I liked and had been planning on throwing in (maybe > it was the shackles?), unfortunately I can't remember it right now... Viscid Darkness and Out of Your Shadow both seemed to be great additions to Obtenebration, I agree. --Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:07:02 -0500 From: "John M. Baker" Subject: Re: Now that playtest13 is almost done...thoughts? At 01:52 PM 1/26/99 -0800, you wrote: >In this game, it worked quite well >but I think that was primarily due to suboptimal play on the part of other >Methuselahs (almost no predator pressure, and Gomi missed his opportunity >to start taking out my weenies), and to the presence of the Anarch Revolts >(although I think I would include them in a different version of this deck, >since they worked so well). > Good points. I'm not so sure that the card is quite balanced anymore, however, for the earlier weenie reasons I mentioned. I agree, though, that suboptimal play did take an important role in allowing you to coast to victory. It's good to know that this game requires strategy during play as well as during deck construction! How many Dark Pranks were in your deck, anyway? (Ironically, I might have had a much better chance of competing if I could have gotten Alice to torpor... I was carrying a Wake the Dead, Regeneration, and Freak Drive, allowing me to refill and come back out of torpor. You shut that down, though. Good call.) John Baker ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:10:20 -0500 From: "John M. Baker" Subject: Re: Now that playtest13 is almost done...thoughts? >Viscid Darkness and Out of Your Shadow both seemed to be great additions >to Obtenebration, I agree. As a flashback to pt11, Viscid Darkness was important in letting me win. The Lutisse with the Mind of a Killer and Vampiric Disease was able to attack and have considerably less blood lost each turn thanks to that card. It adds a lot of ability to Obtenebration and should prove quite popular. John Baker ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: pt13 postgame comments Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:27:28 -0800 (PST) From: justinf@ugcs.caltech.edu (Justin Fang) I was trying to use Lure the Beast* in as nasty a way as possible: not only would I make use of another meth's vamps, but I would hurt him and deny him the use of them at the same time with Force of Will. It was an improved version of my pt7 "Humility" deck. I hoped that a lot of vampires would have Fortitude naturally, but in case they didn't I had Fortitude skill cards and Mentors*. To refill my vamps I had 5th Traditions, and I also had Freak Drives for extra actions. Unfortunately for me, I made a last-minute crypt change to include small and medium vampires. As a result, I didn't get my crucial vampire, Suihailah, or my other two big vampires, Quintus* and John Francis*. With Hadrian* as my biggest vamp and no-one with sup For, my deck could only limp along. The only other playtest cards I used were Raise the Ancients* (to get out those big vamps), a couple copies of Hidden Prescence* for rush defense, and a single copy of Kindred Antipathy*, on the remote chance that I could call it on a vamp, have it pass, then steal it, sent it to torpor, and have the Kindred Antipathy* burn it. Other playtest vampires I had were Percy*, and I think Ivan*. -- Justin Fang (justinf@ugcs.caltech.edu) This space intentionally left blank. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Xian" Subject: Re: pt13 postgame comments Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:24:15 -0600 I forgot about the vampires...thanks, Justin. Well, the only one I got out was Julian, Standover Artist*. I thought he was a good bargain. I mean he was expensive, but I was shooting for a potence/obtenebration rush deck with a little dominate on the side. That was all him. I *think* he was the largest vampire I included, though I might have tossed in that Grey Man one as well. I think the rush action is in-flavor. I think most of the vampires we've got *are* going to be balanced, but I just thought I'd say a few kind words about Julian, as he was basically my primary vampire. (Not to mention dom vic is an interesting combo...) Xian, really digging the Lasombra after this game...hmm...poke poke...if only I had a few more Political Seizures... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ragtag@ugcs.caltech.edu Subject: Re: Now that playtest13 is almost done...thoughts? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:16:48 -0800 (PST) According to John M. Baker: > At 01:52 PM 1/26/99 -0800, you wrote: > >In this game, it worked quite well > >but I think that was primarily due to suboptimal play on the part of other > >Methuselahs (almost no predator pressure, and Gomi missed his opportunity > >to start taking out my weenies), and to the presence of the Anarch Revolts > >(although I think I would include them in a different version of this deck, > >since they worked so well). > > > Good points. I'm not so sure that the card is quite balanced anymore, > however, for the earlier weenie reasons I mentioned. I agree, though, > that suboptimal play did take an important role in allowing you to > coast to victory. It's good to know that this game requires strategy > during play as well as during deck construction! > > How many Dark Pranks were in your deck, anyway? 40 out of 100 cards. It seemed to be a pretty good ratio, as I kept drawing them whenever I needed them. While designing the deck, I was somewhat worried that I might run out, figuring an average of 3 cards to initially cripple each vamp, and then a continuous supply to keep the vamp down until I could manage an oust. As it turned out, I didn't need to use Dark Prank as often as I thought I would - after the first VP, surgical application of a few each turn was sufficient. The difficulty in my strategy was apparent in dealing with Justin. It took me a full 3 actions to reduce Hadrian to 0 blood; then I had to keep the pressure on lest he pull off a 5th tradition (which he did, eventually, but too late). > (Ironically, I might have had a much better chance of competing if I could > have gotten Alice to torpor... I was carrying a Wake the Dead, Regeneration, > and Freak Drive, allowing me to refill and come back out of torpor. You > shut that down, though. Good call.) I remember the way things worked in pt3... =) One more thing I wanted to mention was vampires. I used all playtest vamps, with the exception of March and Smudge, who were there as weenie bleeders. The !Ravnos seemed reasonable for the most part, but Jester was pretty unfortunate. His special was actively a problem this game, as I was very much concerned that Justin would steal him and then just burn him using his own special ability. His lack of superiors also would have made him very unattractive, had I cared about disciplines beyond basic Chimerstry when making this deck. Arthur was fine for me in this game, if a bit big, but I'm having a couple of doubts about his superior dominate. The mid-capacity !Ravnos seem to be a bit weak when it comes to in-clan disciplines - Jester, Mattias, Arthur, and Julio all have odd discipline selections. I'm not attacking that immediately, but it seems to me to be a condition worth monitoring. --Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ragtag@ugcs.caltech.edu Subject: pt13 Finishing statements Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:20:24 -0800 (PST) According to John M. Baker: > First comment: I know that from the beginning Rob was against Dark Prank. > Now we all know why. A horde of weenie Pranksters can virtually instantly > cripple a deck into an endless cycle of hunting, allowing those same weenies > to have free reign of the table for the rest of the game. Bravo, Rob, on > pointing that out so dramatically. Just a minor factual comment. I don't think I was ever against Dark Prank, since I believe I proposed the card... =) --Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:12:55 -0500 From: David McCarty Subject: Re: pt13 Finishing statements Just to make this official, here's my 2 cents. I had put together a deck in the attempt to use the Grand Temple of Set. Not abuse, just use. I had some problems getting my deck set up and over spent my pool to early in the game. The thought was to use conceal on the temple with the Sacred Nile Croc as a blocker, various pool gaining cards to fill the card then steal vampires using them to take out my prey. A good plan in theory, still has not worked in practice. Dave M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:00:58 -0500 From: "John M. Baker" Subject: Re: pt13 Finishing statements >Just a minor factual comment. I don't think I was ever against Dark Prank, >since I believe I proposed the card... =) > >--Rob > Hmm, I thought I did. No matter. :) I stand corrected, in either case. I'm willing to keep the card unchanged, for now, but I wouldn't call it locked. When discussing the card, though, I think Tier of Souls is a better benchmark than Cryptic Mission. Sure, CM has been around for longer, but ToS does CM's superior line on its inferior line. John Baker ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:01:57 -0500 From: "John M. Baker" Subject: Re: pt13 Finishing statements Sorry, Dave, but I didn't send this to the list. At 06:12 AM 1/27/99 -0500, you wrote: >Just to make this official, here's my 2 cents. > >I had put together a deck in the attempt to use the Grand Temple of Set. >Not abuse, just use. I had some problems getting my deck set up and over >spent my pool to early in the game. > >The thought was to use conceal on the temple with the Sacred Nile Croc as a >blocker, various pool gaining cards to fill the card then steal vampires >using them to take out my prey. > >A good plan in theory, still has not worked in practice. > Actually, I've thought about trying a deck just like that. May I make a suggestion? Make it a Conceal deck, and add a bunch of Powerbases too, for blood gain. If no one can attack it, you might as well let the blood grow on Chicago until you need it for emergencies, and the steady flow from New Yorks and Mexico Cities will be welcome. Realm of the Black Sun might also work for this strategy. This also allows you more options if the GToS doesn't come out. Then, you just find ways to make sure that you can deal with vampires with superior Auspex. I was considering packing Lure the Beast, Pulse of the Canaille, and Justicar Retribution for that. Of course, maybe you can just pull off the Pulses and your opponents will gladly leave you alone. If we could find some way to throw in a Goth Band you'd be sitting very pretty indeed. If you were going for GToS/Conceal, I'm surprised you didn't carry more Ruzzas. The environment has become so intercept-free here that +1 stealth is all you need to make an action unblockable. John Baker